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[Music]

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welcome back everyone um we are now

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moving on to jesse lynn's talk about

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moving to self-managed open access

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publishing uh jesse is a recovering

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library and archives academic currently

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working at the federal office of the

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arts

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until 2021 she was voluntary uh

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voluntary vice president and managing

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editor of the australian society of

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archivists and actively involved in the

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move from a proprietary publishing model

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to open access which is fantastic in my

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view

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uh jessie has a phd in that considers

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how quick um zines queer archival and

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collecting practices and has taught

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collection management and an archival

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product

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sorry archival practice in a couple of

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australian universities

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she has a lapsed zine

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maker and stencil press printer which is

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really interesting anyway on to you

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jesse

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thank you sarah and hello to everyone

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i'm speaking to out there it's hard to

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know who's there but i think there might

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be some um

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members of the audience who can probably

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add more to the story that i'm telling

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so i'm going to take today's session as

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a bit of a storytelling session and

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uh

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knowledge sharing and hopefully bring

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some other voices in as people ask

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questions or as we talk about

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experiences

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i'm here today at my home in isolation

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in canberra on the lands of the unseated

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lands of the nana wall and nambri people

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i pay my respects to elders past and

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present and

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acknowledge the important work that

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indigenous people do

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have always done and continue to do in

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preserving and thinking about how we

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know things

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um

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sovereignty was never seen it always was

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always his aboriginal land

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today uh is an interesting session

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i am not uh involved i'm not i'm not i

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don't have a day job in publishing um or

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and as a

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lapsed academic i have been mostly on

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the other side of publishing

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writing articles and publishing them

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my role in the asa as managing editor

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though it led me to develop lots of new

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skills and knowledge in

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the publishing field and the academic

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publishing field in particular what i

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love about my work with the asa in

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particular is that the journal that the

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asa

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produces is

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what we call a society journal and so

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it's it's

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led and driven not predominantly by the

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academic agenda that a lot of journals

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are published and

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driven by but it's also really member

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driven and so

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that idea of collective organization

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comes before here

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and the asa the australian society of

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archivists is always putting members

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first and at the forefront and that's

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what has driven a lot of the decisions

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we've been making along the long journey

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of this journal

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so today

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i will give you a bit of a potted

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history of how we've come to be where we

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are

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um at this point

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as sarah said i am the

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recent vice president and managing

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editor i'm no longer on the australian

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society of archivist council i was there

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for three years and i loved my time

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there's a lot to learn

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encourage anyone who's interested to get

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involved in these governance roles in

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your professional associations i think

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it's really important that we diversify

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the voices that we have in leadership

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roles in our professional associations

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as well

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um

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as someone with a very young child it

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was really interesting for me to

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bring that voice to

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some of the discussions and how we think

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about care responsibilities for instance

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that the professional association offers

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um

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the

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so what else did i want to say and so

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my

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interest has always been in open access

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publishing and i joined council to

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continue to

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pursue that interest mainly because the

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university i worked at at the time

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didn't have a subscription to a couple

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of key archives journals and that was

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really problematic for me

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as an educator because i wanted my

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students to be reading the research it

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was at the cutting edge of

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our practice and our profession and the

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theory and it was really difficult to

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then be able to use the material that

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was in the journals because the library

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didn't have a budget to subscribe to

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them

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and when they did they were

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eventually there was

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archives and manuscripts was bundled up

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in within a bigger database and i'm not

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a librarian i don't

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academic librarian i don't really

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know the intricacies of that

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the

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way those financial structures are set

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up so we could get some articles from

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archives and manuscripts then what

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became the issue was that

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many of the articles that i wanted to

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use that were historical articles

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weren't available anywhere except in

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hard copy and so it required a lot of

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interlibrary loans and the like

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so that's how i came to be part of this

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project before me though have been

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and still going on uh huge numbers of

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active members who have played a role in

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the journal over its life either

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in editor roles in

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author roles in managing the content and

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the relationships and the like and a lot

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of voluntary roles in

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recent projects

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so for those of you who are going asa

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what are you talking about is it the

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authors is it the anesthesiologists who

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are these asas um we are the archivists

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um the society of archivists is the

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national body peak body that advocates

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for and supports

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both archives and archivists and by

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also record keeping

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um

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where uh and james you might correct me

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here we have around a thousand members

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um also

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we

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have been going since 1975 so there's a

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long history and we have a long

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um

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an important role in advocating for the

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profession and for the the workers in

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the profession

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um alongside our friends in the glam

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sector so we have really strong

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relationships with alia for instance and

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other

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glam professional associations so

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one of the things that society does

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amongst many is produce a journal and

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this journal is archives and manuscripts

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the

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journal was started in 1955 and i'll go

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back i'll come to that and it was

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published in print

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only by the society as a society journal

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up until 2012 and so it's important to

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just look at some of the

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uh the materiality of the journal i

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think at this point to say anyone who

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got the journal got it in print form

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um up until that point

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from

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although catherine may correct me there

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but that's i'm just going to put that

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out there um from

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2012

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the journal was published by taylor and

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francis who were one of the big players

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in the academic publishing world

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and then the journal was available print

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and online

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and then from this year we the society

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will be publishing the journal again

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self publishing it and we'll be

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publishing it open access and

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importantly we will also be publishing

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it print as well as online

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and

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that's important to think about when we

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go back to that point that i was making

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about us being member driven first the

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print copy has always been

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a material object that gives people from

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a lot of the research and surveys we've

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done with members it's it's the object

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that people hold on to

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and gives them a sense of

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belonging to the society

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um

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interestingly in some of the surveys

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that we did in the last few years we

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have people

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telling us that they don't actually read

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it but they still want to get it which

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is always interesting

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without fail we will get a few

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full-run copies of the old print version

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offered to the society for our archives

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every year

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um as i

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visit people on my journeys i often get

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shown

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people come and show me their run of

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beautiful colors of print journals on

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their shelves and so the print copy was

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something that was really important to

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us and has

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given us a bit of a challenge now as we

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work forward

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but it's important

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so

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the what has been interesting for me is

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to look at the

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how we got to where we are now

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for what has been a very

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long running journal

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nearly 75 years and

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for a journal that has been driven

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purely by volunteer labor in my mind

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so originally

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the asa didn't start till 1975

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as i said but the archive section of the

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library association of australia started

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the journal in 1955

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and so and that laa then became alias so

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for those first 20 years alia in theory

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owned the journal

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our australian library and information

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association from 1975 onwards the asa

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has continued to publish the journal

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from 2002

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um and that inserts a more recent 20

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past

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the journal moved from being a journal

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publishing

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articles of note for the profession and

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of research and publishing research to

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where the articles are peer-reviewed so

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it became a fully-fledged academic

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journal

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by

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i think from memory the mid

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i can't remember exactly when this whole

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world happened in academic world but by

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the late 2000s the

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archives and manuscripts was an a-rank

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journal

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in the old way of referring to how

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journals were ranked which put it up

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there with some of the best in the

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country

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and

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made it a very desirable journal to

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publish into as well

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around 2010 2011 the society started to

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go through some troubles we call them

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00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,680
the troubles

292
00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:40,000
we transferred publication to taylor and

293
00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:41,440
francis um was one of the side effects

294
00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,320
of those troubles

295
00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:47,120
in 2017 it was put to members that maybe

296
00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:50,079
we should consider not going on with

297
00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,519
taylor and francis um or maybe consider

298
00:10:50,079 --> 00:10:52,959
staying with him for another three years

299
00:10:51,519 --> 00:10:54,880
it was decided to stay with another

300
00:10:52,959 --> 00:10:57,279
three years

301
00:10:54,880 --> 00:11:02,480
and that was all by member vote and

302
00:10:57,279 --> 00:11:04,320
that important to know but by 2019 um no

303
00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,720
in 2019 sorry

304
00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:10,160
those previous print issues that had

305
00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:12,720
been up until 20 the 2000 early 2000s

306
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,399
had been fully digitized

307
00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,560
all the metadata created and then we

308
00:11:14,399 --> 00:11:17,920
released them all online as an online

309
00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:22,720
archive

310
00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:25,279
of 1955 to 2011 um fully searchable and

311
00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:27,600
fully open access so that was a a huge

312
00:11:25,279 --> 00:11:28,399
project that was 10 or 15 years in the

313
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,399
making

314
00:11:28,399 --> 00:11:32,480
to get that done a lot of

315
00:11:30,399 --> 00:11:34,399
people had it played a big role in that

316
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:37,440
i just happened to be the person

317
00:11:34,399 --> 00:11:40,800
steering it at the end

318
00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:44,160
and for that we used an open source

319
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:47,040
platform called ojs and supported by pkp

320
00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:49,600
at simon fraser university and then we

321
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,440
decided not to renew the contract with

322
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,560
taylor and francis at a council level so

323
00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,800
we took

324
00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:57,040
uh we surveyed members and council made

325
00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,959
the decision

326
00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:01,360
and since that decision we've spent the

327
00:11:58,959 --> 00:12:04,959
last um

328
00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:08,000
14 or 15 months getting ready to

329
00:12:04,959 --> 00:12:11,040
move to that full open access model

330
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:13,440
uh that's a very brief timeline

331
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,600
i just wanted to and this is i've summed

332
00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,360
this up i think

333
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,120
the important things to note here are

334
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:22,399
these troubles so

335
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:24,880
the role of the society as itself as the

336
00:12:22,399 --> 00:12:26,560
publisher of the journal and how

337
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,959
financial sustainability is really

338
00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:30,639
important in order to have

339
00:12:28,959 --> 00:12:33,120
a sustainable journal

340
00:12:30,639 --> 00:12:34,639
and so those troubles really

341
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:37,760
led into a lot of the decisions that

342
00:12:34,639 --> 00:12:40,000
were made to move to taylor and francis

343
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,839
there was a lot of tension at around the

344
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:45,600
time at that decision

345
00:12:41,839 --> 00:12:47,920
about that decision so the move

346
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:50,240
to taylor and francis was controversial

347
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:53,519
within the member body but it was seen

348
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:56,480
as the at the time the way

349
00:12:53,519 --> 00:12:59,600
forward to ensure that the journal could

350
00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,639
keep being published um

351
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,079
there were

352
00:13:00,639 --> 00:13:04,079
a lot of

353
00:13:02,079 --> 00:13:06,320
activism there was there was activism

354
00:13:04,079 --> 00:13:07,680
around that time and the board the

355
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,600
editorial board of the journal did

356
00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:10,720
change quite significantly due to that

357
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,680
decision

358
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:15,680
um it's been very interesting

359
00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:16,880
uh seeing how that's been managed over

360
00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:18,399
the past 10 years and i think it's

361
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,800
important to remember

362
00:13:18,399 --> 00:13:22,720
always about the the decisions you make

363
00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:25,440
being political decisions

364
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,639
taylor and francis had a particularly

365
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,839
unique

366
00:13:26,639 --> 00:13:32,560
green open access license for only four

367
00:13:29,839 --> 00:13:36,079
lis journals and i think that's been

368
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:37,040
uh quite productive for the society so

369
00:13:36,079 --> 00:13:40,560
that

370
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:42,160
license means that all

371
00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:43,600
so instead of everything being locked

372
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,199
down forever

373
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,320
on the taylor and francis

374
00:13:45,199 --> 00:13:47,120
platform

375
00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,160
the

376
00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:51,920
any every volume is released open access

377
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,160
after three years so it's a three-year

378
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,120
embargo for that license

379
00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:59,199
it's

380
00:13:55,120 --> 00:14:00,959
it's been useful for us in how to manage

381
00:13:59,199 --> 00:14:02,560
some of the member expectations around

382
00:14:00,959 --> 00:14:04,800
access to information

383
00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:06,560
one of the roles of being a member one

384
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:09,279
of the benefits sorry of being a member

385
00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:11,120
of the society however is around access

386
00:14:09,279 --> 00:14:11,920
to the journal so we had to really weigh

387
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,920
up

388
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,360
some of our

389
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,440
thoughts around

390
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,040
restricting access and and what taylor

391
00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:22,079
and francis offered in that

392
00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:24,000
and how we made more political activist

393
00:14:22,079 --> 00:14:25,839
decisions around access to information

394
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,279
which is what the open access model is

395
00:14:25,839 --> 00:14:28,079
about

396
00:14:27,279 --> 00:14:30,320
so

397
00:14:28,079 --> 00:14:32,079
we did a lot of surveying of members and

398
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:34,240
we have always been surveying members

399
00:14:32,079 --> 00:14:37,040
and asking them about this

400
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:38,720
um we did a lot of research over the

401
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,120
last over that whole 10-year period so

402
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:43,199
we moved to taylor and francis and from

403
00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:45,040
that point committed to

404
00:14:43,199 --> 00:14:47,040
making a good decision into the future

405
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:50,720
about staying

406
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:52,560
importantly to note too is um

407
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:56,800
when we think about open access and

408
00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,800
publishing and is actually that

409
00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,120
for this these 10 years and the years

410
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,760
previous that there is actually

411
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,199
copyright ownership of all the content

412
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,120
and so

413
00:15:05,199 --> 00:15:09,120
it's not like

414
00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,279
we can just say oh it's open so we have

415
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,800
to think about copyright quite a lot at

416
00:15:11,279 --> 00:15:14,720
this point and we are having some

417
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,320
interesting discussions with lawyers

418
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,040
around this as well

419
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,360
so

420
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,519
from what we can see and what we know is

421
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,680
that asa has a content copyright and

422
00:15:21,519 --> 00:15:25,600
taylor and francis owned the

423
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,760
the visual copyright of the sort of

424
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,440
layout of the those 10 years worth of

425
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,360
journals and that's

426
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:34,720
been good for us to get to the bottom of

427
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:36,639
but it's been interesting as well

428
00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,720
so the online archive i've got the link

429
00:15:36,639 --> 00:15:41,920
there i'm happy to share it it was a

430
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:43,600
huge job to seek permission so talking

431
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,759
about copyright again

432
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,680
every author of every article or their

433
00:15:45,759 --> 00:15:52,000
delegate or their

434
00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:53,600
air had to grant copyright transfer and

435
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,639
agree to

436
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,839
open

437
00:15:54,639 --> 00:16:00,000
creative commons or i think it's a

438
00:15:57,839 --> 00:16:01,680
creative commons license on

439
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,160
their material

440
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,680
so that was a huge project of managing

441
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,199
all that data

442
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,880
the permissions data and we have that

443
00:16:07,199 --> 00:16:11,279
all safely stored away

444
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:15,279
once that was all done then we worked to

445
00:16:11,279 --> 00:16:17,040
we there was a lot of evaluation done of

446
00:16:15,279 --> 00:16:17,920
service providers for to host for

447
00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,040
journal

448
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,759
pkp

449
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:24,160
was decided as the best option

450
00:16:21,759 --> 00:16:26,240
so there's a cost involved the society

451
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,519
carries that cost to

452
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,160
host

453
00:16:27,519 --> 00:16:31,920
the journal on the pkp server

454
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,399
so it's a public knowledge project at

455
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,440
simon fraser university

456
00:16:34,399 --> 00:16:37,680
and

457
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,920
um the

458
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:42,079
we launched that and there's still a lot

459
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,839
of tweaks to be done but the best bit

460
00:16:42,079 --> 00:16:46,480
has been working with open source

461
00:16:43,839 --> 00:16:48,160
software and that's what ojs on open

462
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,399
journal system is

463
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:53,279
is that there's some flexibility

464
00:16:50,399 --> 00:16:55,680
to tailor it when we need to

465
00:16:53,279 --> 00:16:57,600
interestingly there we procured the

466
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,880
services of a

467
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,440
journal

468
00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:04,400
publishing service i'm not sure what

469
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:06,720
they actually call themselves um to do

470
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,640
the bulk of the

471
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,720
the transfer work and the upload work

472
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,360
with us and to do the desktop publishing

473
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,880
and design of some of the parts of the

474
00:17:13,360 --> 00:17:17,039
website

475
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:19,120
and i think that was a good recognition

476
00:17:17,039 --> 00:17:20,880
from the society of the fact that none

477
00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:23,120
of us are experts in

478
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,520
in all of these different fields and so

479
00:17:23,120 --> 00:17:27,120
it's more cost efficient and sustainable

480
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,319
for us to actually pay the experts

481
00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:29,280
rather than

482
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:31,280
um

483
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,919
those of us on council at the time

484
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:36,240
trying to or those volunteer members

485
00:17:33,919 --> 00:17:39,280
trying to get the expertise we're really

486
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:41,840
good at archives we're not so good at

487
00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:44,000
managing websites necessarily

488
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,000
so

489
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:50,000
the last 15 months has been

490
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,840
a big project trying to get this

491
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,000
happening our contract with taylor and

492
00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,720
francis had a 12 month notice period and

493
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,080
so

494
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,640
the first thing we had to really do was

495
00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:01,120
make that decision we gave the notice

496
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:04,799
and um so our contract finished with

497
00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:07,840
taylor francis on 31st of december 2021

498
00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:09,039
and so they have uh we have terminated

499
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,600
any relationship with them and they're

500
00:18:09,039 --> 00:18:11,600
no longer

501
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,240
giving the access that we have to the

502
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,200
journal in that way

503
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,440
so

504
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,280
um

505
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,960
from there once we've made that decision

506
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:25,600
that was quite a big decision to make

507
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,679
and it i feel like um at the time the

508
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,720
council that made that decision

509
00:18:27,679 --> 00:18:30,559
one of the

510
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,640
motivating factors for us there was

511
00:18:30,559 --> 00:18:34,960
around the statement we were making

512
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,320
about who can access information and how

513
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,080
they access it

514
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,720
and what was important to council and

515
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,600
still continues to be i believe

516
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,200
is

517
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,440
the

518
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:48,480
information and about practice and the

519
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:50,799
findings of research are important for

520
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,720
all to be able to access regardless of

521
00:18:50,799 --> 00:18:54,720
where they are and what limits they have

522
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,400
on that information

523
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,799
we have a large member base in the

524
00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:02,559
volunteer sector or in the small archive

525
00:18:58,799 --> 00:19:04,880
sector that might not necessarily have

526
00:19:02,559 --> 00:19:07,200
as much a higher as a budget to access

527
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:10,880
that information for instance

528
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:12,960
um we also there is also a huge

529
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,559
the global audience for our research

530
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,799
that gets published is quite important

531
00:19:14,559 --> 00:19:18,960
as well

532
00:19:16,799 --> 00:19:21,919
during 2021 we did a lot of research it

533
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,200
was very interesting trying to find a

534
00:19:21,919 --> 00:19:25,200
place

535
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:28,799
to publish the journal so we weren't

536
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:31,120
able the council is not staffed

537
00:19:28,799 --> 00:19:33,280
incredibly well i don't know james you

538
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:34,960
may have some other thoughts on that

539
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,280
but we don't have someone whose job it

540
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,120
is to manage a journal and so we needed

541
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,400
to find someone to host the journal for

542
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:43,120
us

543
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:45,679
um and to do a lot of the and who had

544
00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:47,600
the expertise in managing journals we

545
00:19:45,679 --> 00:19:48,799
approached a couple of local university

546
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,640
presses

547
00:19:48,799 --> 00:19:53,440
who publish open access because the

548
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,720
decision had been made to go open

549
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,960
and

550
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,799
as to be expected we

551
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,960
weren't able to work with them because

552
00:19:58,799 --> 00:20:02,799
despite us even having a budget to spend

553
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,600
on it there's just not enough resources

554
00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:08,080
in universities at the moment

555
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,840
and so the council decided to continue

556
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,200
our relationship with the

557
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,000
publishing

558
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:16,480
services support company based out of

559
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:18,480
europe who work with pkp

560
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,080
to provide that front-end service and

561
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:23,280
also help manage the back end of the

562
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:26,480
publishing process so we have budgeted

563
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:29,280
um there's a yearly budget line in for

564
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:31,039
the council for the society to manage

565
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,960
so to cover the cost of managing the

566
00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:35,600
journal

567
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,200
we made a decision to print the journal

568
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,799
and some of the decisions around that

569
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,640
printing are

570
00:20:38,799 --> 00:20:42,480
still to be finalized so there's a lot

571
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,240
of research still to be done there

572
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,000
we're looking at print-on-demand models

573
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:49,039
and we're trying to incorporate some of

574
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,720
the politics of

575
00:20:49,039 --> 00:20:52,159
labor and

576
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,480
distribution

577
00:20:52,159 --> 00:20:56,080
through those decisions but at the end

578
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,640
of it we will need to make sure we still

579
00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:00,720
get a print copy to those people who are

580
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:03,600
entitled to it mainly members and

581
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:05,360
subscribers we've been learning a lot

582
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:08,720
about publishing so a lot of the work

583
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:10,720
that tnf did was very untransparent and

584
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,480
so that's been interesting and hard to

585
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,159
know what we don't know until they

586
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,760
suddenly tell us that here's some

587
00:21:14,159 --> 00:21:17,840
information for you that we don't need

588
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,200
we don't do any more

589
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,200
and most importantly we've been

590
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,880
communicating with members very clearly

591
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,960
about the decision making and where

592
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,320
we're going forwards

593
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:29,760
so

594
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:30,640
it's been a very bumpy road i would say

595
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,640
um

596
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,880
going if we go all the way back to the

597
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,960
decision to move to taylor and francis

598
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,720
and now the decision to move away from

599
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:41,039
taylor and francis

600
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,960
but it's been excellent the last two or

601
00:21:41,039 --> 00:21:45,280
three years of my involvement has been

602
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,360
really interesting in it uh some of the

603
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,799
findings we have or some of my own

604
00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:50,320
personal reflections are that it's

605
00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:52,080
really important to be able to feel

606
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,799
confident to spend money

607
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,480
um volunteer labor is really excellent

608
00:21:54,799 --> 00:21:58,640
but it's important that we recognize

609
00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:03,039
people's skills and knowledge and reward

610
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:03,039
them for it with the um with money

611
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,120
it's

612
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,559
often impor one of the other really

613
00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:10,559
important things has been in networks

614
00:22:08,559 --> 00:22:12,880
that we've lent on and are very grateful

615
00:22:10,559 --> 00:22:14,320
for around the open access publishing

616
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:17,200
community and they are in those

617
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:19,120
university libraries and presses

618
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,919
as well as with colleagues

619
00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:22,240
at

620
00:22:19,919 --> 00:22:24,159
sister type journals for instance

621
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,840
archivaria in canada

622
00:22:24,159 --> 00:22:28,320
and the relationship between the

623
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:30,480
editorial board and the

624
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,799
journal is also very important they were

625
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,320
very supportive of the decision

626
00:22:32,799 --> 00:22:35,760
going forwards

627
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,679
um

628
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,679
so networks are very important and

629
00:22:37,679 --> 00:22:41,840
communication

630
00:22:39,679 --> 00:22:43,280
and then

631
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,840
the other thing

632
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,919
i would like to reflect on there is that

633
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,760
if you get the chance to

634
00:22:47,919 --> 00:22:52,960
make these type of decisions don't be

635
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:56,480
afraid to bring your politics and and

636
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,840
where you stand in it to the fore so

637
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,520
because you'll realize that lots of

638
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,799
people might also be thinking the same

639
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,360
way and so that voice is really

640
00:23:00,799 --> 00:23:07,280
important to be to have out there

641
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:08,799
i think um sarah is that enough time

642
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,559
should i leave some time i'm not sure if

643
00:23:08,799 --> 00:23:12,240
there's any questions there

644
00:23:10,559 --> 00:23:14,000
uh there is actually quite a few

645
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,480
questions okay so

646
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,840
i'm going to stop sharing if that's or

647
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,960
maybe i can put this up for a little

648
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,960
while but i'm happy

649
00:23:21,039 --> 00:23:26,159
thank you so much that was fantastic um

650
00:23:24,559 --> 00:23:27,840
first question would you do it again

651
00:23:26,159 --> 00:23:30,880
knowing what you know now

652
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:33,360
yes totally i think the um

653
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,720
the what's motivating me now is to know

654
00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:36,480
that people more people are going to be

655
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,480
able to access the information and

656
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,840
actually we think and we're seeing it

657
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,919
we're going to get more research being

658
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,600
published as well more people's

659
00:23:41,919 --> 00:23:46,960
choosing the journal as a venue for

660
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:49,520
their research so yes definitely

661
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:52,000
um how aligned do you think the members

662
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:54,640
are in the idea of open access is there

663
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,159
a better feeling of the members that uh

664
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,080
then there are troubles despite all the

665
00:23:56,159 --> 00:24:00,480
changes

666
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,240
uh can you say that one i'm like yeah

667
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,679
can you say that one again is that how

668
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,600
online do you think the members are in

669
00:24:03,679 --> 00:24:06,799
the idea of open access i guess that's

670
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,080
the best way

671
00:24:06,799 --> 00:24:09,120
um

672
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,240
i

673
00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:15,279
think it's either a measure of active

674
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,520
or apathetic and so it's the the apathy

675
00:24:15,279 --> 00:24:19,679
is it's not a bad thing to be apathetic

676
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,200
and not have an opinion

677
00:24:19,679 --> 00:24:23,600
but those who do have opinion we had

678
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:26,000
very little active resistance to the

679
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,600
idea of moving to open access

680
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,200
so it was either people didn't really

681
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:33,279
need to not like didn't know or didn't

682
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:36,559
want to know or were very supportive

683
00:24:33,279 --> 00:24:39,039
uh how much was the move to real open

684
00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:40,799
access with pkp driven by the general

685
00:24:39,039 --> 00:24:43,120
membership and how much was it driven by

686
00:24:40,799 --> 00:24:45,760
the council

687
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:47,600
um it

688
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,760
that's a hard

689
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:52,159
question to quantify the answer to i'm

690
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,679
not really a quant person and i can't

691
00:24:52,159 --> 00:24:56,720
give you stats but

692
00:24:53,679 --> 00:24:59,120
um there were a lot of

693
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,400
there were a number i would say of vocal

694
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:03,120
members

695
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:05,279
um and always were since we made the

696
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:08,000
decision to move to taylor and francis

697
00:25:05,279 --> 00:25:09,279
we being not me on the council but the

698
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,960
society

699
00:25:09,279 --> 00:25:14,240
um there's always been a vocal group

700
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,720
about that

701
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,720
of members

702
00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:21,760
um and

703
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:23,679
yes sorry no no keep going

704
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,480
i was just gonna say there have been

705
00:25:23,679 --> 00:25:27,039
uh

706
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:29,919
and and there is always a vocal minority

707
00:25:27,039 --> 00:25:31,840
but um the

708
00:25:29,919 --> 00:25:34,799
underlying message we got through our

709
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:38,240
surveys as well was that it was either

710
00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:39,840
um yes supported or unless it was there

711
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,559
were some concerns i think in a survey

712
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,960
about the cost of the society

713
00:25:42,559 --> 00:25:47,200
that's all

714
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:49,120
um and this one's probably more of a

715
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,960
comment but um

716
00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:52,720
i assume or hope that there's a paper or

717
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,320
two in the archive about the bumpy road

718
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,120
that you were telling us about

719
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,880
yes

720
00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:58,640
it will come now i don't have to be an

721
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,799
academic i'd love to write a paper about

722
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:03,600
being about doing this work so

723
00:26:00,799 --> 00:26:05,840
yeah definitely some work coming

724
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,559
wonderful to hear um

725
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:11,520
did the move to pkp for the

726
00:26:08,559 --> 00:26:14,880
2011 and earlier journals influence your

727
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:17,919
decision to go pkp again this time

728
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:22,480
yes so that our preference initially was

729
00:26:17,919 --> 00:26:24,880
to go local and so to go the local press

730
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:27,520
and once we realized we couldn't do that

731
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,039
because it wasn't a sustainable model um

732
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,880
we

733
00:26:29,039 --> 00:26:34,080
went and we did evaluate a couple of

734
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:36,080
different online journal systems but we

735
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,480
went with pkp because we did have that

736
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,440
pre-existing relationship

737
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,880
and

738
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:46,400
it gives us a smooth uh

739
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:48,640
kind of image for the journal

740
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,400
okay and one last question

741
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,440
hypothetically

742
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,840
if there is

743
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:56,320
uh some australian library association

744
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,240
out there that wanted to do this with

745
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,760
their publication do you think that

746
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,840
there would be different or other

747
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:05,120
barriers and how would you suggest that

748
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:08,400
they go about changing their journal

749
00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:09,440
i think the um

750
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,279
the

751
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:14,080
part of the decision-making that was the

752
00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:15,840
easiest was the confidence the financial

753
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,440
stability that the society has at the

754
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:21,120
moment

755
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:24,080
so we're not in uh unstable position

756
00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:26,080
and so that stability made us

757
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,320
gave us the confidence so i think for

758
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,600
any society but

759
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,440
any association that might be

760
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,600
considering it got looking at your

761
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,279
financial stability in the first place

762
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,399
because the thing that was also quite

763
00:27:35,279 --> 00:27:38,559
eye-opening

764
00:27:36,399 --> 00:27:40,559
to me was that we were making money from

765
00:27:38,559 --> 00:27:42,240
taylor and francis there was a bit of an

766
00:27:40,559 --> 00:27:43,840
income stream coming in and so what

767
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,240
we've had to do is sacrifice that income

768
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,279
stream and look to diversify it in other

769
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,600
ways

770
00:27:47,279 --> 00:27:50,799
which i think is definitely there's so

771
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,880
we've done a lot of planning around that

772
00:27:50,799 --> 00:27:54,799
too

773
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,360
um but i think it's been very well

774
00:27:54,799 --> 00:27:59,279
received by our glam community the

775
00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:00,720
decision from what we can see we haven't

776
00:27:59,279 --> 00:28:03,279
had any resistance

777
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,840
and so i would encourage other

778
00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:07,360
glam type journals to consider it as

779
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,200
well

780
00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:11,120
i would i would definitely encourage

781
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,440
that as well well thank you so much

782
00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:15,120
jesse for joining us today and it was

783
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,200
amazing hearing about

784
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:19,840
the process that you've been through

785
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,919
next up at 5 pm we have daniel sobi

786
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,080
telling us about musicbrainz.org and

787
00:28:21,919 --> 00:28:27,039
wikidata.org

788
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,399
hopefully you can join us at 5 00. thank

789
00:28:27,039 --> 00:28:32,919
you again jesse

790
00:28:28,399 --> 00:28:32,919
thank you thanks for the invitation bye